Gender Fundamentalists
January 25th, 2008
Many of us in the LGBT community are painfully aware of the religious fundamentalists who have such a wonderful time coming up with lies and fear tactics to throw out to the uneducated masses. They know full well that a great deal of those Americans will believe anything they are told, if you follow it up with “Praise the Lord.” Of course, their true God is the Almighty Dollar, which they get in abundance from those people who don’t know any better.
We hear a lot about the Islamic fundamentalists and how they are such a threat to America. In many ways, they are ranked amateurs compared to the Christian fundamentalists here in the US. Oh yes, we hear of gays being executed in the country that has no gays, Iran. I’m sure that every time that happens, Beverly LaHaye, ChairMAN of the Concerned “June Cleavers” for America, salivates, hoping we get a Republican President who will support that as well. I’m sure she would like it if President Eddie Haskell “gave us the business.” (The “June Cleaver” comment is not to put down the beloved character in “Leave it to Beaver,” but to emphasize the time period their mindset is in.)
Not to make light of it, but the Christian fundamentalists are a dangerous group of people, even if there weren’t any gay people for them to hate. Mike Huckabee’s comments on wanting to change the Constitution to reflects God’s laws instead of the Founding Fathers’ wonderful ideas is a prime example of the danger this group of Americans can be.
But, I didn’t title this article “Christian Fundamentalists.” There are plenty of others who can talk intelligently on that subject. My article is on a growing number of transsexual women who use their post-operative status as a symbol of their superiority over any other gender-different people. I can guarantee that as soon as this article sees the light of day, they will rise up out of their holes and swoop down on me like the creatures in the movie, “Pitch Black,” with Vin Diesel. I’m not afraid of the dark.
My interest in this started several years back when I heard of the term, “Women Born Transsexual.” I am aware that this subject has been broached by some good writers, such as Gwen Smith in her article called “What’s in a Name?” (The link is no longer working.) Also, Marti Abernathey wrote a wonderful piece called, “Don’t Let The Door Hit Ya In The @!#*!!”
Those who identify as “WBT” no longer see themselves as being a transsexual, stating that “surgery made me female.” They can identify however they like, but if all the facts are taken into account, SRS/GRS/SAS cannot make any male-born individual into a female. It’s just not biologically possible. (I don another layer of Kevlar.) In a 1000 years, an anthropologist will lay out the bones of a WBT and say, “Male, age . . . Oh, wait, this was a Woman Born Transsexual. My bad.” Yeah, right.
The person who invented the term Women Born Transsexual, Susan Cooke, has an interesting history. She had been involved in various rights movements in the 60’s, cutting her teeth on Civil Rights and anti war issues. She took on many issues back when some of us were still trying on our sister’s clothes. I have had several conversations with her and grown to respect her viewpoint. Today, she openly opposes the Iraq War and is advocating for environmental issues.
Susan every once in awhile speaks up when these issues come up for discussion. I’m sure I will hear from her after she reads this. But, through all of our conversations, I get the impression that she wants to focus on other things, leaving others to take on the WBT fight. These others are the “Gender Fundamentalists” I wish to focus on.
One of the things I notice these Gender Fundies like to do is bitch about what Virginia Prince said nearly 50 years ago. What is the relevance of that today, in 2008? Many in out community see Virginia Prince as a pioneer, but the things she said in the late 50s and early 60s are about as relevant as the space race and 45 RPM records. Gees, Virginia is nearly 100 years old! Give the lady a break.
The WBT people blame Prince for “inventing” the word “transgender,” but in reality, it was a collaborate effort. They say that you don’t change your gender, because it is in your brain. Changing your body is changing your sex. I tend to agree with that. However, the word “transgender” has come to mean a lot more than transversing gender norms. It now covers anyone who changes their gender expression from their birth gender, either permanently of temporarily. This includes the Gender Fundies. The WBT people say they don’t accept the word and the rest of the world shouldn’t either. They have come up with screens and screens of words on the Internet trying to justify on why they are right, but never once do they show the courtesy to allow others to use it.
Their hatred for the word would be the same thing if Ford Motor Company said they don’t like the word “automobile” because it is not correct. Since a human has to operate the vehicle, then there is nothing “auto-matic” about it. They want to call them, “manualmobiles” and they will chastise anyone else who calls cars the hated A-word.
I also noticed that several of the so-called stealth WBT people have been equally vocal and condemning of HRC and Barney Frank on blogs and lists as the rest of us have. Yet, they happen to mouth the exact same words that Frank used in justifying keeping transgender people out of ENDA. That is about the shower issue. I have even heard some say that a person with a penis is still a man. They don’t either understand or care that their comments are what Frank uses to keep us AND THEM out of ENDA.
I remember bringing up to Frank in one of our face-to-face confrontations about the situation where a Female-to-Male, with a full beard, hairy flat chest, balding head goes into a woman’s shower because he still has a vagina. How do you think the women would react when he walks in? Frank admitted he had never thought of that. The “Women” Born Transsexuals also forget about the men in our community, because they just don’t seem to understand them. The existence of trans men throws their whole “logic” out the window. When confronted with their existence, the WBT people dodge the question.
Speaking of chastising people, this has become the standard operating procedure for many who identify as WBT. If you don’t have an aftermarket vagina or plan on getting one soon, then you’re nothing more than “fetishists” or “perverts.” They also resort to calling people “transgenderists,” as if the word will hurt others like it hurts them. I have to really laugh at that one.
It doesn’t matter if a person cannot get surgery for medical reasons, or that the finances are not in place. If you don’t follow the strict teachings of those “self appointed leaders” in the WBT movement, then they are, she-males, transvestites, crossdressers, or just “Mr.” I’ve been called “Mr. Helms” many times, which also makes me laugh, because I wasn’t born with the last name of “Helms.”
I used the “self appointed leaders” term in the previous paragraph because this is something else that the WBT people like to harp on. Marti Abernathey covered this very well in her article. What they don’t seem to understand is that the majority of the leaders in the transgender movement have been appointed, elected or hired by others who feel they can do the job. It is true that I co-founded the Transgender American Veterans Association, but to remain President, I have to face an election every two years. Many others, like Marti, are considered leaders because they actually go out and help the community. WBT people don’t have a history of ever doing that, except for Susan Cooke.
Another interesting phenomenon I have noticed is that the WBT people are the first to scream (and I do mean scream) for respect, but never once have I heard any of them show even an ounce of respect to anyone else, for any reason. The only ones they “respect” are the people who are exactly like themselves. Deviate just a little and heaven help you. Respect works both ways, at least in the real world.
Part of my research into this segment of our society, I opened up and read various web sites having to do with the phenomenon known as the “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” (HBS.) This appears to be a made up “condition” that is not found in the DSM4, so the APA doesn’t recognize, and it is not a real medical condition, so the AMA doesn’t recognize it. Some of those people pushing HBS as an “intersex condition” in hopes that it would somehow legitimize it, but you won’t find it mentioned anywhere on the web site for the Intersex Society of North America.
So, what is HBS really? The closest analogy I can come up with is that it’s like the local ethnic restaurant that is really a front for organized crime. “Yo! Iffin’ youz got HBS, then youz part of da ‘family’.” Okay, okay. So, my Italian background dribbles out every once in awhile. Suddenly, I’m hungry for my mother’s lasagna.
In most cases, HBS has become a front to try and provide some form of legitimacy for people who are basically homophobic and transphobic transsexual women. I came across a wonderful web site from a person who had seen the inside of the HBS society first hand and discovered how they acted toward others. She even discovered the sudo-science they use to justify their hateful rhetoric. The woman, Laura Amato, confronted one of the HBS’s self appointed leaders, Charlotte Goiar in an open letter. Some of what I wrote here came from Laura’s writings. Laura is a person who has embraced the HBS concept, but took out all of the hate and would like it to be recognized in the proper fashion. She would like one day to see HBS become a true recognized condition. This is a very brave woman for going against the hateful beliefs of the other HBS people.
Laura points out that the people who created the term “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” took the name of Harry Benjamin without permission. This condition that has been created using his name is not anything he came up with. It is almost as bad as the Christian fundamentalists evoking the name of Jesus when advocating their hate. Harry Benjamin was no Messiah for transsexuals. Some even point out that his writings were not very complimentary toward transsexuals. But, that’s no excuse for hiding behind his name, using it as a shield, while they lob out their hate grenades.
One should note that any transsexual woman who considers themselves a lesbian or bisexual are also called fetishists and perverts by the hard core HBS people. The same for those transsexuals who stay married to their spouses after finishing transition. This shows a strong homophobic attitude. I have to laugh sometimes when I hear on a Yahoo Group list one of these women saying, “I’m not a transsexual any longer and I live a stealth life.” Yet, there they are, name as plan as day, on a transgender discussion group. So much for stealth.
If you want to follow all of links I listed here, then I warn you that it is a lot of reading. I feel that it is important to know where these people are coming from. I suggest people be cautious when reading the opening pages to any WBT and HBS web sites, especially new people.
In Laura’s letter to Charlotte, she points out another problem that has occurred with new people visiting the HBS Yahoo Group. Whenever a new person signs on and starts asking questions, the members of the group automatically start attacking that person and call them various nasty names. In the early stages of a transsexual’s transition, they are vulnerable and emotional, afraid of doing something wrong or being found out.
There is a lot of fear in those early days. To be chastised by so-called experts can be a very emotionally scarring experience. Laura knows of some who have attempted suicide multiple times. This is why she has a website where she and others provide help to trans people attempting suicide because of these people. Another resource for help is the Transgender Help Line at 877-427-3230. This is maintained by long-time activist Ann Marie Knittel.
I want to emphasize that even though I’m shining a not so complimentary light on the WBT and HBS people, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am all for people wanting to identify any way they wish. The problem I have is when people think that their identification is the one and only right way and anyone who disagrees with them or even wants to discuss it is called all kinds of nasty names. When another person’s hatred toward other gender different people causes someone to take their life or even attempt to then I will have a problem with it. I have to bury three of my friends who have committed suicide in the nearly 11 years I have lived as Monica. We don’t need trans people – our peers – pushing others to follow my friends’ paths.
Now that this article is done, watch the comments on the various blogs and you will see first hand how nasty some of these people can be. This article is like honey to bees. They cannot resist commenting. By their own words, they will validate everything I have written here.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Well written and thought out piece Monica, thank you. Frankly there is way more division in and around the whole GBLTIQ thing. A community divided will fall, and seems to keep doing so, it’s regrettable really.
Sam
January 26th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Hi Monica,
I am one of the moderators and participants in a Yahoo group, Trans/Gender Theory:
trans-theory@yahoogroups.com
- among the major contributors there is Suzan Cooke (Suzy in casual conversation).
I like Suzy. I respect her. She has major cred (as you acknowledge i your column, as well). I don’t agree with her a lot, though.
The terminology I have been using of late to describe the phenomenon is “transsexual separatism.”
Their position is a lot like that of feminist separatists who drank the Janis Raymond “Transsexual Empire” Kool-Aid, patrolling the boundaries of womanhood to encompass only WBFs (women born female, as opposed to WBTs), just moving the bright line enough into the gray area to encompass post-ops and no one else.
*What I *like* about the term “Woman Born Transsexual” (or MBT for Man born Transsexual, for our FTM brethren) is that it allows the concept that the original sex assignment was a mistake - that those who transition (regardless of what form that transition takes) are being who we really are - never really belonged in that original assignment.
(And yet, I do know that all we can expect from a binary society is a “reasonable accommodation” to be allowed to belong to the binary assignment we feel we should have belonged to - or, for those who don’t feel they belong in either, the right to be “other” and not either!)
On the other side of the separatism coin, while Virginia Prince might be a pioneer, there is much in her writings that lead one to believe that she might have encouraged a very different sort of separatism that pertains to some in the CD community - those who think that one has to be delusional to feel the need to have SRS. (I have only met Virginia in person on two or three occasions, and had a discussion with her at my first IFGE convention (at Crystal City) about the term “non-op transsexual” during which I got exposed to a lot of the thinking reflected in her writing on the topic.)
The separatism thing from both ends of the spectrum is a lot like the KKK and the Black Panthers - white supremacists and black supremacists have more in common (keeping the races separate) than they have in common with people who think we should all get along.
On my blog, the only entry that has ever generated replies was one I did on Susan Stanton and Separatism, in which I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt.
I think it would also be appropriate to share a URL for a website that I think epitomizes the concepts of “transsexual separatism” (the proprietors, Lisa Jain Thompson and Sharon Gaughan will deny that they are “separatists” but I do recommend a visit to their site):
http://www.TS-Si.org
I think that much of what they have on their site is quite good - but then the separatrist philosophy seems to creep in. But dont take my word for it, go visit yourself.
While separatists will often assume that anyone who is not “themselves” is a member of their straw-man” opposition (Suzy will sometimes assume that I am a disciple of Virginia Prince), I think the real opposition to “separatism” is “inclusivism.”
I try very hard to be inclusivist - while at the same time respecting real differences in the needs that require “reasonable accommodation” for us to all get fair treatment and a level playing field in society.
Joann
January 26th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Monica,
I can agree with some of your comments, the parts where some are so unreasoning in their flexibility in thought why some are not surgical. There are truly many reasons and it makes me wonder why some groups hold that as the key to being permitted in. I know a person who is surgical and she is not a person I’d want in any group, clearly a person who might have gone too fast and now has not learned how to be the person they are saying they are. You saw some of her postings on a list you belong to.
That said I disagree with this over all use of the term transgender. I see the term as one which has no true meaning, can include gay, men who love men or women who love women, into the umbrella since “society for many years said that wasn’t how genders should behave. People that are bi, effeminate men, butch women, drag performers (straight or gay) Gender benders, fuckers, Bois, gender non conformers and so many more.
It is that reason I find the term and it’s over all use distasteful when used to describe me as a person or identity.
Homosexual has gay and lesbian, without this fuss, because each group understood different needs between the men and women, why is there such a fuss by those choosing the transgender identity to understand the same. There are different needs between those who need medical help to live in the body they have always known themselves to be?
If, as you say, all those who use the term WBT or HBS ignore the men, then that would be both foolish and wrong. But I disagree that that is the case. I have no issue with the term MBT or men being or using HBS as their identity since it does not invalidate the other, or anyone else.
Prince aside, and to be honest I know women who are transexual that had the displeasure to meet prince in the 80s only to walk away feeling depressed and suicidal because they were made to feel like there was something wrong with a person who would have any surgery, loose or change that genital. Yes Prince is almost 100, but never recanted those thoughts so what are people to then think. )if I’m wrong about the recanting do point me to references of that fact) Until that time to many of us, this person is no hero.
I guess my question is, just what is wrong with including both terms, or all? Why can’t people say, TS/TG/IS ?
In my head if an organisationis going to work for all then it must make that clear, there is nothing wrong with a person not being transexual, but by the same position so many make it feel like there is something wrong with being transexual.or having that identity. Ignoring only brings Descension.
Zelots are on both sides, on all sides of any cause, lets not forget that either when you write articles like this one.
Thanks
January 26th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Thank you for saying what needed to be said, Monica. I’ll never forget when I ran across the “Official” HBS website and innocently wrote to the owner (I don’t remember her name) to point out several things I disagreed with. Her response was extremely rude.
I do agree with their assertion that transsexualism is an intersex condition and that presenting it that way to the public is the best strategy for gaining our acceptance.
Monica wrote, “The “Women” Born Transsexuals also forget about the men in our community, because they just don’t seem to understand them. The existence of trans men throws their whole “logic” out the window.”
Yep, you nailed it! Unfortunately, the media tends to ignore us transmen too, so when the public hears the word “transsexual” they automatically think of a transwoman. I’ve heard from other guys that some state policies were designed entirely with the ladies in mind and require transmen to get a vaginoplasty in order to obtain a legal gender change!
Anyway, it really is a shame that some in our community are such elitist snobs. We would all be better off if they just moved on like Susan did.
January 26th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
I see you put up the wal*Mart freeware blog software.
I guess ou can’t afford the fifty dollar software with all that money you are making. living as a man and not living full time as a woman.
I understand.
why don’t you be honest about who you really are.
being part time and all.
Kisses
Sue
January 26th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
And, how much did you spend on your web site?
January 26th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Monica,
I was initially very tempted to write a sincere rebuttal to your article, but by the time I read through to the end I realized what a waste of time it would be. Your own hate-filled rhetoric far surpasses everyone you’ve criticized; it’s regrettable that you have resorted to arrogant remarks and personal affronts - such immaturity is rare among women. Your vehement disrespect towards others, which you ironically use as your core argument against WBT and HBS, is no less in evidence here and gains you nothing but pity from me. Anything I could say in rebuttal would only earn me your snide, bile-filled retort.
Prove me wrong.
Kelly
January 26th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
That’s really too bad such a comment as that was said to you Monica. Don;t think everyone agrees with such comments just because we disagree with being under a transgender umbrella.
And if I’m thought to be a fetish person by some, as you mentioned in your article, because I sleep with women, as a woman, then so be it.
As I told people long ago as I attempted to explain to then friends, gender and orientation are two different things. Who I am but who I love.
I know people who are transexual that also use TG as a term to identify themselves, that’s their right as long as they don’t use it as mine and that’s all most of us want others to understand.
It’s not about dividing, it’s about celebrating each other as we are, as we identify. It’s about educating others that there are different identities.
I know when I do workshops I’m clear on the many differences because it’s important.
Respecting each other should be what it’s about. As I pointed out there are zealots, those who go too far, push too hard and attack the other, on each side.
We are stronger as a happy and respecting community, then we are as one that has to struggle to feel heard, listened to and respected from within.
TS and TG people can work together if they try, but they should work togethers as individuals seeking comman issues.
January 26th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Femme, I love your attitude and I would be honored to work with you anytime.
January 26th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Well, I read the links.
I have to take a partly oppositional stance here on the Harry Benjamin Syndrome thing. Yes, the term is not yet recognized by any medical professional body, but the concept itself is not “made up.” I take no issue with the fact that there is a medical condition in which a person’s neurology, which is determined prenatally, is incongruent with other anatomical markers of sex. This can only be intelligible as an intersex condition. I also understand the resistance of the established intersex community to this idea. They have their own advocacy agenda, and there is a significant difference in what traditionally intersex and transsexual people experience at the hands of medical authorities. I agree wholeheartedly with this statement from harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org:
“Harry Benjamin’s Syndrome is a neurologically induced intersex condition and as such must be classified as an intersex condition along with other intersex conditions, and not among mental disorders. Should Harry Benjamin’s Syndrome be denied an intersex classification then it should be classified along other rare medical conditions not related to any mental disorder.”
There is so much truth in this document - I can’t emphasize this enough. The positive change that would result from recognizing this as a medical condition, and especially continuing to develop pre-puberty treatment protocols, would be a blessing beyond measure. It’s a damn shame that it’s polluted with fundamentalism, which will set back the progress it otherwise represents.
As Laura demonstrates, this totally subjective, political infighting is doing real damage to the cause of advancing medical knowledge that could help everyone.
After reading the SOC from harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org - I think I get it now. These folks want to return to the days when people had to jump through the hoops of the gender identity clinic gatekeepers, in return for which this quite authentic intersex condition will be recognized as such. They are hoping for the same sort of backroom deal we just witnessed with Barney Frank tossing the trans community under the bus, only the party tossed under the bus will be everyone who doesn’t conform to this exceptionally narrow treatment protocol for the condition formerly known as GID. Do I have it about right?
“HBS, then, is concerned with altering one’s physical sex to match one’s brain sex; it is about recognizing and respecting gender norms.”
“Most adamantly it must not be confused with displays of modern day gender-variant expressions.”
Then there’s this gem:
“Unless one has had Sex Affirmation Surgery (SAS), birth certificates should be neither permanently changed nor temporarily amended. That would be a contradiction of facts and lead to societal and legal confusion. Birth certificates should reflect the actual physical sex of an individual, not the attitude or presentation of a personality.”
This, in particular, is simply enraging. SAS is defined in this same document as ” the primary surgical removal/alteration/reconstruction of genitals/sex organs to match those of the affirmed sex.” They are therefore recommending that FtM people shouldn’t be able to correct vital identity documents unless/until they submit to the completely unsatisfactory surgical procedures that are currently available.
This all reminds me of one of the last comments on a thread over at Bilerico:
“I like and are comfortable with the two sex system that exists in modern society (the last 2500 years)
i fit into it just fine and have no issues with it.
why should i change something that has worked for me?”
Maybe, my dear, because it causes unspeakable harm to other people? Maybe because equality and human rights for *everyone* are not about what works for you?
January 27th, 2008 at 3:59 am
Monica,
Once again Monica you attack those who don’t want to be attached to the Charles ‘Virginia’ Prince confused transgender/transvestite label to which you seem glued.
How might I ask is it too difficult for a male like yourself to understand that many of us knew the concept behind Prince’s coinage and never associated with it? You attacked me once before and denied me the claim that I have the right to self identify but instead stated in reply, ‘you will always be a transgender’.
The problem as I and others see it is that under the transgender label the public sees crossdressers like yourself and equate that with people who have known themselves to be mentally one sex (gender) and their genital sex in contradiction from an early age. That is the basic concept of Harry Benjamin Syndrome: http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org/.
Yes, once we have surgery we are past the suffering having been born HBS but now we, unlike most transgender who keep that label for life, know ourselves to be women or men and function as just that without the contradiction expressed by the transgender verbiage. We do not ‘trans’ from one sex to the other because of an urge or a desire. Is that so hard for you to understand in your forced demand for us to accept your identity as our own?
Understand, we have submitted to the APA and also at the HBIGDA Symposium in Chicago the suggested SOC that should be addressed for all HBS born. It has nothing to to with transgender, a term designed for and by a full time transvestite and the publisher of the fetish magazine, ‘Transvestia’. Also, transgender was never accepted as a medical term and definately never to include transsexuals but simply designed as a means of self expression now assumed to include many gender variants, a concept you willingly accept but others do not.
You might accept Prince as your historical high priest but we do not.
Our group by the way not only has lesbians in it but in fact they are moderators as well. No, they do not identify as transgender since that is not what they are. You know that since you attacked us because of our demand to be excluded from any transgender linkage.
Read our website and I am sure you will find fault with it for it does not adhere to your concept of identity which you explained to me once as being part of both sexes. That is fine, for you! It is not a lifestyle I link to nor is it for those who dealt with a birth problem the only way possible for them…sex correction, not ‘transing’ their brain gender when the whim hits them.
I accept you are transgender so please accept that I am simply a woman and never was and never will be transgender. I identify as having been HBS born and that has nothing to do with the many variant elements under your TG umbrella which favors fantasy in the face of reality.
Prince told me when I was searching for answers those many years ago that anyone who wanted a ’sex change’ was delusional but now that I corrected my body to conform with my gender you too say about the same thing to those of us who will never accept his identity for ourselves; an identity he clearly defined as not inclusive of transsexuals.
Diane Kearny
January 27th, 2008 at 10:10 am
What makes this truly ironic is that you cannot see that you are the one who is being a fundamentalist. You, like so many others, are dead-set on imposing a label on people who don’t accept it. In the end, that puts you more in line with the religious right. Sorry, but that’s the simple truth.
The term “transgender” is an artificial political construct that has no objective meaning. It is totally meaningless unless someone identifies that way, and those who do not should not be forced under the so-called umbrella.
If Ford chose to call their product something new, that would be their right. It would not be your right to correct them.
As to HBS, well, let’s just say that it is a collaborative effort to change terminology. Just what you claim that “transgender” was. No, it is not widely accepted in the medical profession, yet. It has been used, however. It was mentioned in a BBC article, in reference to a patient in South America (I think it was Brazil). The difference is, no one is trying to force the term on anyone. We don’t want to tell you what you have to call yourself. We are simply requesting that we be referred to by that term.
Oh, and the last time I checked, “transgender” is not in the DSM or is in ICD-10. As I said, it is has no objective meaning. It is an artificial construct.
Funny, in the end, your argument seems to be that ignorant people lump all of “us” together, so we should accept their ignorance. Sorry, but I decline.
January 27th, 2008 at 11:05 am
” 6.
Oh, and the last time I checked, “transgender” is not in the DSM or is in ICD-10. As I said, it is has no objective meaning. It is an artificial construct.
Funny, in the end, your argument seems to be that ignorant people lump all of “us” together, so we should accept their ignorance. Sorry, but I decline.”
Well Put Jennifer
January 27th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Monica,
You use the communication between Laura and Charlotte as your proof of reason for your hatred towards all WBT and HBS born people and their identity.
Yes we do self identify and justly so. No, I never wanted privileges accorded the opposite sex while adorned in their clothing. And no, I was never diagnosed as transgender since that term was yet to be thought up by Mr Prince. I simply wanted to be whole and not subjected to the ‘inclusion’ later of the transgender ‘binary’ which obviously is neither male nor female in reality…at least not on party nights it seems.
I was a patient of Dr Benjamin and his associate Dr Ihlenfeld and yes I had corrective surgery in 1972. Dr Benjamin is gone but Dr Ihlenfeld thought our HBS site was powerful and informative. I know Dr Benjamin would have been honored to have his name associated with our site since it outlines most of his thinking especially that ours is a biological condition and not transvestic in any of its varying elements.
You, not unlike Laura of ‘Laura’s Playground’ express your point of view on a public access site and play your propaganda as if those that respond are in total agreement with you and filter the responses to allow only one or two that disagree with you. Two that I know who responded, myself included, have not been allowed to post. Why is that Monica? Is it because we self identify and give fair and good reason for doing so? Yes, that must be your fear.
I am not part of your community and never was. You are what you are, a transgender and that seems fine for you. I am a woman who never was a transgender and that is fine with me. You though insist I must be part of your ‘community’ and prefix myself with some ‘trans’ connection as if that is the limitations of my womanhood. No dear, that is how you define being a woman since you are not one but I choose to be true to myself whether you or your tg friends like me to do so.
Diane
January 27th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Interesting enought, I received a compliment today on this article from a nationally know psychologist who has written books on various TG/TS subjects AND has been a gender therapist for the last 25 years. She agrees with everything I wrote here and even asked if I was getting any negative comments. I think that an individual who has more credibility in her little finger than all of the HBS people put together pretty much trumps any negative things you want to say to me.
Oh, and the reason I’m not giving out her name is I respect her too much to have her get hate mail from some of the AH HBS people on this planet. I feel great about what she said to me today. It’s enough to have someone of her stature to validate my findings. I can just sit back an watch some of you make fools of yourself.
January 27th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
How might we make fools of ourselves when you refuse to post our messages? Or do you take our posts and feed them to sympathizers when otherwise they might be seen by others as a more valid argument? She did ask for any negative comments you might have received so I justly ask for that same answer from you since you hide our posts from the public. Maybe she might agree with what we say but does not want to offend the men with gender problems that are still having difficulty in handling. You come into my first thoughts in that regard.
Her stature has no validity if it does not pass the test of scrutiny. How about posting our responses and post hers as well even if you don’t post her name. At least we are honest and give our identity.
BTW, our presentation given at the Chicago Symposium was well accepted by many including a famous Calif. doctor who not only elected to sit down with two of us for lunch to discuss our presentation but agreed with our basic premise presented. Can you say the same or do you still stand in front of the Capital Vietnam Wall giving the impression you represent all transsexuals in your fem attire all the while people looking on in wonderment?
Diane
January 27th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Sorry Sue, but no amount of harassment from you will make me reveal her name. I don’t need you to validate or confirm anything. She is too good of a friend to have her get hate mail from the likes of you. Whine all you want, and call me all the names in the book. It ain’t gonna work. Your feelings in this are N/A.
How’s the AMV doing?
January 27th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Seems I struck a nerve. One cannot make an omelet without cracking a few eggs. The wonderful thing about being human is that there are more then two sides to every story, just like there’s more then two sides to everything. “Mother Nature can think beyond binaries. Human Nature cannot.”
January 28th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Hmmm, struck a nerve? Yes, I suppose it does strike a nerve when one has a label forced on them that is not welcome. Personally, if people want to claim that there are more than two genders, that is certainly their right. But, science is rapidly showing how wrong they really are.
As to the bit about the psychologist…that is very possibly true. But I don’t think the resistance to revealing the name is rooted in a desire to protect privacy, as much as it is to prevent the laughter that would result. There are those who are known to agree with this viewpoint, and who are not held in high esteem by anyone, except their fellow kooks. Several names come to mind. They would not be considered credible at all.
Then again, the old “I got a message, but I can’t reveal who it is from…” ploy is an old one, and is considered pretty lame. Either way, it accomplishes nothing, and makes Helm’s look pretty silly.
January 28th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Since when did I come to your house and twisted your arm to “force” you to accept any label? Getting a bit melodramatic, aren’t you? “Oooo! You forced me! You forced me!” I’ve seen better acting in a grade school play. I don’t know you, I don’t care to know you and I don’t give a damn what label you’re married to. You can call me a liar, or any name you want. It’s doesn’t changed the fact they you need professional help. Let me know where you live and I’ll get you some names.
January 28th, 2008 at 10:36 am
That is Monica always looking for shock value.
January 28th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I had your article brought to my attention by a colleague as something I should read. However I find myself somewhat at odds with your view and compelled to respond in some way. I fear you may have been misinformed on some issues and have perhaps missed some important sections of research. Perhaps you have chosen not to report them?
The problem with quoting second hand sources and heresay is that it is so often very difficult if not impossible to verify the accuracy of the source.
The other issue to remember is that while You, Laura Amota and the others who went to Charlotte Goiar’s yahoo forum viewed the forum as a support forum. It was not and is not. The function of the forum was to formulate through discussion a method by which the concept of Harry Benjamin Syndrome could best be promoted. To explore where the boundaries of it’s definition should be drawn. As such it was a private place and some views would necessarily move to extremes before they matured and became more moderate.
A few people joined and made suggestions that “transgender lifestyle” behaviour should be included. Since the whole concept of Harry Benjamin Syndrome was to distance transgender from the HBS definition; the membership were vehement in their rejection. Many of the forum members had bad experiences whithin TG forums and wanted to eliminate any hint of transgender lifestyle from the forum.
Try raising the issue of HBS on many of the “so called” TG support forums and see what kind of a reception you get however polite curteous and well informed you may have been and sit back and watch while the aggressive verbal attacks begin. Even if you do not mention HBS by name but talk in those terms, the reaction is hostile in the extreme.
One of the “visitors” cross posted to the playground some things that were said in private and meant for the ears of yahoo forum members only. This behaviour was totally against forum policy and but seemed to be not only condoned but encouraged by Laura.
As someone who has professional qualifications in the area of psychology I am aware that there are some glaring differences in the psychological thought processes of those who identify transgender and others who many in my profession group together with transgender but whom I believe have no business being placed within this group of people. My experience in the field shows that this small group are motivated by something quite unlike transgender. It is the practise of therapists working in this field to use six distinctly different groups for GID There is growing evidence that a quite different and separate group should be established. Whether that group should be called Harry Benjamin Syndrome or not remains to be seen.
However to close, the very concept that a person however they may self identify should be allowed to be legally female while still having male genitalia is in my view not an option. To use the unfortunate plight of those female born who identify as male where surgical options are inadequate and quite dangerous with a poor outcome as an excuse or justifcation is grotesque.
By the way, I ceased to practise in this field so I no longer use my acreditations.